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Article - 'GW Round Table #1: CBS and CMS' by Guest

An item about Miscellanious posted on Aug 8, 2003

Blurb

A full out debate on Custom Battle Systems and Custom Menu Systems in games, do your opinions match that of the staff? Sit down and prepare for our first round table!

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Welcome to the first in possibly a series of Debate articles, in this we pick a topic to discuss then all just sit in a room and debate our views on it. Sometimes things may get nasty but we know if we don't behave Lord_Gremlian will say stupid things to use and make us run away and cry to our mommies. On another note, this article was not exactly formatted very well, as this is just the first one.

Pyrate asks, Do you think that, overall, the introduction of a CBS/CMS in a game is a good thing? Will games be ruined by the total lack of concentration on anything but the CBS and CMS? Or will developers realize there's more to a game..


[11:21]blue_moogle -- I think a CBS will help a games originality since each CBS is slightly different, but it can ruin it by taking away time for the storyline
[11:21]DarkPriest -- I object !!!
[11:22]GaZZwa -- Oh DP, just....just...go back to your hentai
[11:22]DarkPriest -- If people work as a team, it won't distract the coder as he has nothing to with the plot in the first place !
[11:22]Bart -- I don't really care for CBS's, the only thing they have proved in any game so far is boring after seeing how "amazing" the CBS is in about 2 minutes.
[11:22]blue_moogle -- But how many people work as teams and can really make a game
[11:23]blue_moogle -- Unless the CBS is the game
[11:23]blue_moogle -- like a tactics game
[11:23]DarkPriest -- I can ^_^
[11:23]Bart -- Just tell me one game that was better then a Default Battle System game, that used a Custom Battle System...And no demos :P
[11:23]Pyrate -- I agree with Bart.
[11:23]blue_moogle -- ...hmmm
[11:23]DarkPriest -- There are none :P
[11:23]GaZZwa -- In my opinion, CBS's can be a bonus, or a bad thing. CBS's done well, (and this means better than anything we've ever seen yet) could be great, but the sad truth is that the CBS's around at the moment are of such a poor quality (even Kindred Saga's wasn't that brilliant, really) they are more of a hindrance than anything else.
[11:23]Pyrate -- That was the exact point I was going to make.
[11:23]DarkPriest -- But the default gets boring just as easily
[11:23]Pyrate -- You cannot beat the functionality of the DBS.
[11:24]Bart -- But the default can be spiffed up
[11:24]DarkPriest -- Yeah, but that won't help too long
[11:24]Pyrate -- It is so flexible, it's just from a graphical standpoint that a CBS stands out.
[11:24]GaZZwa -- Fireblade is an example of this, hehe.
[11:24] * DarkPriest objects !
[11:24]Bart -- Yup, most CBS's now a days are just the same thing with graphical changes :(
[11:24]DarkPriest -- Advertising ;D
[11:24]Pyrate -- Yes
[11:24]blue_moogle -- yea
[11:24]blue_moogle -- unless its a tactics CBS!
[11:24]Lord_Gremlian -- Heh, the default battle system leaves MUCH to be desired in my opinion, well in rm2k anyway. No viewing of characters, first person perspective, four persons to a party? Argh, torture to play.
[11:24]blue_moogle -- which we rarely see
[11:24]Bart -- Sovan Jedi's new game is an exception, and so is Rusty's FF Game
[11:25]DarkPriest -- Yeah :)
[11:25]Pyrate -- If you have played Kyrent Project or In The Name Of The Rose, they have used the DBS and have made inventive ways of approaching it.
[11:25]Lord_Gremlian -- But how DO we define custom battle system? something totally unique or an edit of the default?
[11:25]GaZZwa -- Tactics CBS would be nice to see. And Zelda-type action battle systems also work well.
[11:25]Bart -- Lord_Gremlian - But people can add animations and stuff to it. Thus spending less time on a new CBS but still adding something to the game
[11:25] * Bart likes those kind of CBS's >:)
[11:25]blue_moogle -- and you don't always need 4 people in a party
[11:26]Pyrate -- DBS has great capabilities for Enemy AI too.
[11:26]Pyrate -- It's much harder to deal with enemy AI in a CBS.
[11:26]DarkPriest -- not really
[11:26]DarkPriest -- They are not THAT great
[11:26] * DarkPriest objects
[11:26]GaZZwa -- But many CBS's are just poor. And some are just "attack slime" "slime attacks you" "attack slime" and it goes on and on until you win.
[11:26]Lord_Gremlian -- If they CAN do that then fine, but I imagine that it would be hard and complex. I am a fan of turn based battle systems, traditional RPGs, but some games with edits make me cringe basically.
[11:26]Bart -- Take Hotmog for example GaZZwa...
[11:26]GaZZwa -- Yes, exactly Bart.
[11:27]GaZZwa -- RPGs not in here is he? Hehe.
[11:27]Bart -- Heh
[11:27]Pyrate -- Hotmog did have a good addition to it, however.
[11:27]Lord_Gremlian -- Heh I liked Hotmog for its story, BUT it was basically a much too easy game.
[11:27]Lord_Gremlian -- You pressed and held one button to win basically.
[11:27]Pyrate -- When ever you used a skill, your HP depleted instead of MP... That was clever :)
[11:27]blue_moogle -- It seems that everyone can decide on have a DBS or a cBS for turn based, but everyone enjoys the fact of having a cBS adventure or tactics
[11:27]Pyrate -- And a nice twist.
[11:27]Bart -- A good example of a game not using anything custom was Bobs Big Adventure, Puzzles, Story and good Roleplay elements. Too bad this kind of game is 1 in a thousand.
[11:27]GaZZwa -- And the battle system was oh so very annoying. It was almost as bad as my first CBS. :D
[11:27]blue_moogle -- so its kinda half and half
[11:27]blue_moogle -- people like some cbs, and others don't
[11:27]Lord_Gremlian -- The ability to see both your character and the enemy was excellent, and the graphics were nice, but the battles consited of...ease.
[11:28]Bart -- Yup, proving my point that CBS's distract from the GAME PLAY
[11:28]Bart -- (To LG)
[11:28]DarkPriest -- hmmmmmmm
[11:28]GaZZwa -- Ah, Bob's Big Adventure. Mention it again and I will have to leave you to go play it. One of RM2k's finest games, in my opinion.
[11:28]Pyrate -- Yes
[11:28]DarkPriest -- Thats just why RMS doesn't have any battlesystems
[11:28]DarkPriest -- :)
[11:28]blue_moogle -- Mini games!
[11:28]Lord_Gremlian -- Yeah that IS correct. Gameplay is an issue with games, BUT they can add such a lot
[11:28]Pyrate -- Bobs Big Adventure is my favourite game of all time :)
[11:29]GaZZwa -- In many instances, CBS's have no gameplay (like in Hotmog). You just sit there drumming your index finger on the "enter" key, to attack. BOOOOOOOOORING!
[11:29]Pyrate -- Then RMS probably, due to the fact that it was so much damn fun.
[11:29]Lord_Gremlian -- and a good game with a well designed and animated battle system turns into a great game.
[11:29]Bart -- Mini Games are nice, and even if a game has no custom battle system then mini games are their to save the day when it comes to creativity
[11:29]Lord_Gremlian -- Pyrate you are a sad little man XD
[11:29]Pyrate -- ;_;
[11:29] * Pyrate cries
[11:29]blue_moogle -- I agree with LG
[11:29]GaZZwa -- My favourite game of all time is Erotica Island...
[11:29]Pyrate -- Favourite RM2K game i mean :P
[11:29]Pyrate -- You would BM :P
[11:29]blue_moogle -- if a graphical game has the same elements of the DBS but in a CBS, its basically a improvement
[11:29]Bart -- I bet the only decent Rm2k game with a CBS that we're going to be getting this year would be Sovan Jedi's game :P
[11:30]Pyrate -- :o
[11:30]GaZZwa -- Pyrate gets angry?
[11:30]blue_moogle -- Pyrate: and what do you mean by I would agree with LG?
[11:30] * Bart just crushed GaZZwa and Pyrate's hopes, Oh noes?!
[11:30]Pyrate -- In the fact that i am crazy and sad >:)
[11:30]Lord_Gremlian -- Quiet GaZZwa. Now, as I was saying, let us take suikoden for instance. It uses the "default battle system", as we define it i.e. turn based but 6 in a party and so on, yet the graphics and animation of it are excellent. of course, its a professional game, but it includes NOTHING which a semi-decent programmer could not make with one of the engines available.
[11:30]GaZZwa -- Bart, Fireblade isn't custom. So stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
[11:31]Lord_Gremlian -- Yet no one mimics it due to the fact that its default and the graphics would probably be too hard, i.e. isometric or whatever the Hell Nate called them.
[11:31]DarkPriest -- Programming something like Suikoden 2 in Rm2k is next to impossible, LG
[11:31]blue_moogle -- Unless you use spiffy pictures!
[11:31]Bart -- I have never played Suikoden, please shoot me.
[11:31]Pyrate -- Well ... it is possible, but so pointless
[11:31]DarkPriest -- Well, graphics wise anything. And thats one of the reasons it rocked.
[11:31]DarkPriest -- One of the MAIN reasons
[11:31]Bart -- Pointless! All CBS's are pointless! :o
[11:31]Lord_Gremlian -- DarkPriest: Doubtful.
[11:31]DarkPriest -- Bart is pointless :>
[11:31]Lord_Gremlian -- Whats so complex about it?
[11:31]Bart -- Ok, maybe not CBS's
[11:31]Pyrate -- CBS' aren't pointless.
[11:31]Lord_Gremlian -- I don't use rm2k, but I do believe that suikoden 1 would be doable.
[11:32]GaZZwa -- LG, are you supporting CBS, or hating it? I am confused.
[11:32]Pyrate -- They are just used for pointless reasons alot :)
[11:32]DarkPriest -- Suikoden 1 maybe
[11:32] * DarkPriest hasn't played it
[11:32]Lord_Gremlian -- I have seen many tutorials depicting amount of characters and so on, HQ things, Inn type things.
[11:32]Lord_Gremlian -- GaZZwa: I'm open minded ;)
[11:32]GaZZwa -- Ok.
[11:32]Pyrate -- If you feel that the DBS will not do your game justice, then it is neccesary.
[11:32]Lord_Gremlian -- You should. Its great. Even the Paper Rock Scissors thing could be easilly done
[11:32]Bart -- But what about Menus? Ugh! I see menus where a person makes it totally custom but all that is added is a nicer looking Gold Meter and slight variations to the layout, why go through all the trouble? I think people just try to show off their skills with some CMS's
[11:32]DarkPriest -- Yeah, some people just can't stand the DBS
[11:32]Pyrate -- In my opinion, its a matter of taste. I could of just as easily used the DBS for Fifth Season.
[11:32]Lord_Gremlian -- yet no one attempts. Possibly with the new "DATABASE OF THE FUTURE" RPGmakers coming out, they will be more accessible.
[11:32] * blue_moogle would rather play a CBS with a interesting feature over a DBS with spiffified additions. A cbs is ultimatly more flexible from gaining random experience points to animated monsters
[11:32]DarkPriest -- Thats just what CBS / CMS is, showing off skills
[11:33]Lord_Gremlian -- Well Destinies Call Complete had an excellent CMS
[11:33]Pyrate -- DCC had a great CMS.
[11:33]Pyrate -- Yes
[11:33]DarkPriest -- DCC and FF:CW both had nice menus
[11:33]Bart -- Bah, But during the time the person spent making the lame CMS they could have made a mini game, or two! :o
[11:33]Lord_Gremlian -- Excellent features in the menu, profiles etc, nice look, moving characters at the bottom.
[11:33]Lord_Gremlian -- Genius IMO
[11:33]GaZZwa -- The DBS is much more accessable and very easily edited. If you could create enough battle animations with skill, you could have some great animations there. The only hindrance is the fact that the enemies are not animated, which (with a little skill) could be changed so you change the enemy character to a different posture and back again, thus creating the illusion of animation.
[11:33]DarkPriest -- Bart - Yes they would. But then they would have no CMS
[11:33]DarkPriest -- :D
[11:33]Pyrate -- Legion Saga II used the DBS very well.
[11:34]DarkPriest -- Legion Saga 2 ?
[11:34] * DarkPriest laffs
[11:34]Pyrate -- Eh?
[11:34]Bart -- No need for a CMS when it looks exactly like the default CMS
[11:34]DarkPriest -- There wasn't anything out of ordinary there :)
[11:34]Bart -- Err, DMS or something
[11:34]Pyrate -- Legion Saga was a bloody masterpiece
[11:34]DarkPriest -- Just characters popping out and attacking
[11:34]Pyrate -- I don't mean it graphically.
[11:34]Bart -- I agree with GaZZwa
[11:34]Pyrate -- I mean the monsters were at the correct difficulty
[11:34]Lord_Gremlian -- Lets take Sphere, ALL menus are custom menus basically.
[11:34] * Bart likes what he's talking about.
[11:34]Lord_Gremlian -- Just because something is provided doesn't mean it HAS to be used
[11:34]GaZZwa -- Most of my old games use the DBS like Legion Saga II. The Legion Saga series are the best RM2k games ever.
[11:34]DarkPriest -- GaZZ, you CAN'T animate monsters in the DBS
[11:34]Lord_Gremlian -- Why not use all RTP in a game then?
[11:35]Bart -- Because RTP is outdated and boring
[11:35]DarkPriest -- Legion Saga ? The best ?
[11:35] * DarkPriest dies
[11:35]Lord_Gremlian -- And only 4 PCs? My ass.
[11:35]DarkPriest -- Its a freakin' copy of Suikoden !
[11:35]GaZZwa -- DP, not animate, no. However, you can change them - and by doing that create the illusion that they are moving.
[11:35]blue_moogle -- Bart: have you maybe thought that DBS is becoming RTP and outdated?
[11:35]DarkPriest -- The plois THIN
[11:35]Bart -- Umm..
[11:35]blue_moogle -- If you think RTP is outdated
[11:35]blue_moogle -- look at the DBS
[11:35]Lord_Gremlian -- Indeed, but the DMS is basically RTP IMO
[11:35]DarkPriest -- GaZz, no, you can't
[11:35]Bart -- I just lost my argument ;_;
[11:35]Pyrate -- DP, Name a better RM2K series out there then. :)
[11:35] * Bart is done, You beat me
[11:35]GaZZwa -- DP, yes you can!!!
[11:35]DarkPriest -- Heh, no other "series" there :p
[11:35]Lord_Gremlian -- yes Bart. yes you did sirrah.
[11:35]Pyrate -- Yes there is
[11:35]Lord_Gremlian -- Huzzah? Ho ho.
[11:36]Pyrate -- Dragon Quest or something ...
[11:36]DarkPriest -- None worth mentioning
[11:36]blue_moogle -- so what have we agreed on?
[11:36]Lord_Gremlian -- Series? Why the "Saga" series by Pyrate :D
[11:36]Pyrate -- Ah yes, i agree with that DP :)
[11:36]DarkPriest -- GaZZ - Please make a fully working DBS with "animated" enemies :p
[11:36]Lord_Gremlian -- Hurry up with fifth saga by the way sirrah :o
[11:36]Pyrate -- LG - You'll see ... you'll see :)
[11:36]Bart -- I am going to say now that a CBS/CMS or whatever is good in a game AS LONG as the creator makes something good out of the actual game.
[11:36]blue_moogle -- that CBS's are ultimatly better if they are made correctly or that the DBS is just to powerful that we shouldn't even bother with anything else?
[11:36]DarkPriest -- Of course Bart
[11:36]Pyrate -- Yeah Bart. Thats completely right.
[11:37]Bart -- But there were just so much games that failed in the gameplay department due to over hyped CBS's and such
[11:37]blue_moogle -- yea
[11:37]DarkPriest -- Yes, and there are games that fail in graphical/gameplay presentation because of the plot
[11:37]Pyrate -- DBS is powerful, it's just how you use it. But there are some things that it flat-out CANNOT do, and the things it cannot do seem to be the things that are in fashion for RM2K games at the moment :P
[11:37]DarkPriest -- Its one or the another, rarely both
[11:37]Bart -- What about the Rm2k platformers? Can you sayb>BORING? It's a nice trick in rm2k but it's just not right for rm2k
[11:37]blue_moogle -- boring
[11:37]blue_moogle -- boring
[11:37]blue_moogle -- boring
[11:37]DarkPriest -- Its another thing to show off your skills
[11:37]Bart -- I don't see why people bother :)
[11:37]blue_moogle -- its an adventure game only with one space of movement
[11:38]GaZZwa -- DP, you can change the enemies in the midst of battles right? Therefore, you can change what they look like and if you do it properly make it look like they are moving!
[11:38]Bart -- But what is the fun of spending months on a game and people not liking it when you are one of the more talented rm2k programmers?
[11:38]DarkPriest -- Yes GaZZ, in THEORY. Please try to make it :)
[11:38]blue_moogle -- Gazz: by changing enemies, you reset its HP and stat levels
[11:38]Lord_Gremlian -- Heh I suppose, as a patron of games rather than a maker I have no right to judge "laziness" as I put it, but what would games be like if the FF series all had the same menu system, which was exactly like the Suikoden menu system (which made me want to orgasm with glee) or the Breath of fire menu system?
[11:38]Pyrate -- DP is right.
[11:38]GaZZwa -- But it is doable.
[11:38]GaZZwa -- I rest my case.
[11:38]Lord_Gremlian -- I concur with Bart about rm2k platformers
[11:38]Lord_Gremlian -- the HELL is the point
[11:38]Lord_Gremlian -- use Klik or something
[11:38]GaZZwa -- Everybody hates me now. Hehe.
[11:38] * DarkPriest say: It is NOT doable.
[11:39]Pyrate -- It works, but .... it is so unrealistic that it doesn't look like the enemy is moving at all.
[11:39]Bart -- Yup, Or Sphere or Game maker or Verge, there's a wide range of tools but I think everyone's afraid of the Scripting :)
[11:39]Pyrate -- Just changing shape
[11:39] * blue_moogle say: Its not doable because changing enemies destroys the current hp and MP levels. It resets them to the old max HP and MP
[11:39]GaZZwa -- But you can change the enemies HP as well
[11:39]Lord_Gremlian -- Platformers are for morons anyway, so why deface the great RPGMakers with such a flacid idiotic thing? Which takes twice the programming of a BETTER game i.e. an RPG
[11:39]Lord_Gremlian -- Indeed!
[11:39]Pyrate -- But it is doable, physically.
[11:39]Bart -- Exactly LG
[11:39] * Bart couldn't have said it better himself
[11:39]Pyrate -- The only thing is, as you say, it messes up the HP and MP.
[11:39]DarkPriest -- Heh, its just another way to break Rm2k's limits
[11:39]Pyrate -- So why it still works, the battle .... wouldnt :)
[11:39]DarkPriest -- Another way to show off :P
[11:40]blue_moogle -- Gazz: you can.. but how? its doesn't have a feature that says Set enemie HP in midst of battle, it only lets you add or subtract HP
[11:40]Lord_Gremlian -- Huzzah hehe. Messes up HP and MP? the hell?
[11:40]GaZZwa -- Yeah, your right.
[11:40]blue_moogle -- you would have to do a lot of variables.. even more than a CBS almost.. for just one enemie
[11:40]Lord_Gremlian -- Our community is about making games. Games for other's pleasure. We are the elite, the ones who grace the internet with our creations, who give not take. When we "show off" and do things for the purpose of looking good then our talents are defaced
[11:41]Pyrate -- Yes. BM is right.
[11:41] * Pyrate Mistar Confirmer?
[11:41] * DarkPriest always shows off in his games ;_;
[11:41]DarkPriest -- With little things
[11:41]DarkPriest -- ;)
[11:41]Pyrate -- There isn't nothing wrong with showing off. :)
[11:41] * GaZZwa tries to show off.
[11:41]Pyrate -- Get praise!
[11:41]Lord_Gremlian -- I write articles, reviews and so on for people to read and judge the games. I don't write them so people can say "YES LG! THAT IS A GOOD REVIEW", but to showcase the game. So who cares about the "showing off" part?
[11:41]Bart -- Showing off is fine but some games just put it to the max and screw it all up.
[11:41]Lord_Gremlian -- They have talent to MAKE a good game.
[11:41]Lord_Gremlian -- Pyrate: it depends.
[11:41]blue_moogle -- so a CBS is basically NEEDED if you want your game to be the way you want it
[11:41]Lord_Gremlian -- Pointless showing off is arrogant.
[11:41]blue_moogle -- the DBS is just not flexible enough
[11:42]DarkPriest -- LG - So are you M;)'
[11:42]Lord_Gremlian -- For example, doing unnecessary tricks and so forth when something more simple would get the job done in less time and more efficiently.
[11:42]DarkPriest -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%% HELLO LG %%%%%%%%%%%%%%
[11:42]Bart -- What the hell is an M? Mullet?
[11:42]Lord_Gremlian -- Quiet DP :P
[11:42]Lord_Gremlian -- (I think he's drunk :o!!!)
[11:42]DarkPriest -- Yes, very
[11:42]Lord_Gremlian -- LOL
[11:42]DarkPriest -- >:|
[11:42]GaZZwa -- Mulllet, hahahah!
[11:42]Lord_Gremlian -- DP has a mullet now?
[11:42]DarkPriest -- no LG, no
[11:43]GaZZwa -- I managed to do my game justice with the DBS.
[11:43]blue_moogle -- So do you guys say A) CBS if only used correctly or B) DBS since it takes less time to make a game, and prevents loss of other fields or C) both, it matters how there are used
[11:44]DarkPriest -- C
[11:44]GaZZwa -- I am all for the DBS, as I can't make a CBS, but I'd have to go C
[11:44]DarkPriest -- ceeeeeeee :D
[11:44]blue_moogle -- C
[11:44]Pyrate -- C.
[11:44]Bart -- Both, it matters how everyhing is used. The DBS is default but it's old and crusty like my grandpa
[11:44]Lord_Gremlian -- My final word: RPGs are for fun. Anything that causes fun is therefore a good thing. By the hedonistical views I have; custom variations are ONLY good if they add something pleasurable, else they are pointless.
[11:44]Lord_Gremlian -- I vote C.
[11:45]GaZZwa -- Heh.
[11:45]DarkPriest -- We actually reached a conclusion ? :>
[11:45]blue_moogle -- thats basically everyone
[11:45]DarkPriest -- Not really, its a illusion ;)
[11:45]GaZZwa -- With the exception of Py, who's ran off.
[11:45]Lord_Gremlian -- Why the HELL does my room smell of meat???
[11:45]Bart -- Yes we have, now we can all go back to being drunk and viewing tentacle hentai.
[11:45]Lord_Gremlian -- :x

Fantastic, our first debate is over. So how did you like it? Would you like to see us debate in your own chosen topic? Or would you even like to be part of the round table? Then simply comment below! Depending on the success of this thing, you may just end up seeing more of DarkPriest being drunk, yes! It's a once in a lifetime
opportunity!